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Revelation Notes... - Random babblings of a fiber-obsessed nutcase

About Revelation Notes...

Previous Entry Revelation Notes... Feb. 25th, 2010 @ 06:22 am Next Entry
Anna asked that I post these - so, here ya go! They're scanty.....but it's what's been on my mind lately.



OK, a few things: Any commentary is my opinion/thoughts only. Some of it has probably been influenced by the church - and I apologize for it. I'm still trying to root out the "wrong thinking". And...for some reason, I can't get past the Trumpet Judgements. I try - I usually read/study while eating breakfast, but for the past...oh, few weeks, *something* comes up when I try to dig into Revelation. I don't know why - but you know the old saying "Once is an accident, Twice is a coincidence, Three Times is enemy action"? Yeah...I don't think it's "Enemy" action....but there ya go. Also, I'm reading in the Complete Jewish Bible - the KJV is wonderful, but I get lost in the poetry of the language. Too much Shakespeare, I think - the CJB is more straight-forward, and plain-spoken. Onward:

I went into this with this thought firmly in mind: The Torah is the basis of it. The disciples - John especially - didn't ADD to it, so when in doubt, look to Torah to see if I could find something similar. Revelation is all prophecy....but it does quote the OT prophets a lot. This may be why I had a thought when reading the messages to the 7 Messianic Communities - I had been taught that the 7 letters were not only written TO those early groups, but also were written for the 7 church ages. OK...I can see that. BUT....it also fits the different stages a Believer goes thru.

When you first come to Believe (or as a child if you grew up in the church), everything is great - it's like you're in the beginning of a serious love-affair. Everything is all nice and shiny, and miracles seem to occur on a daily basis. It's heady stuff.....but then things *seem* to go a little sour. The miracles slow down or cease, and the Believer sort of draws away. Some go on to explore other religions, some stay but become dead wood, SOME stay, dig in, and try to recapture that early feeling. I can see that in the letters......the same sort of thing. (The miracles-thing was mentioned in a book by a Jewish Believer - he said that when he first realized Yeshua WAS Messiah, and accepted it, miracles were all over the place. After a few months, they stopped - he got discouraged and started to wonder if he'd been deceived. His housekeeper, a devout Christian, pointed out that if God kept the miracles up, your Faith wouldn't grow. THOSE are words to remember!)

Rev 1:5-6 - Believers are cohanim (Priests) for Yah. I never noticed that before...that *would* make it possible for the Rapture as believed by the church to occur (that all believers are whisked up into Heaven, do not pass go, do not stop for Judgement). Ok....but..

Rev 2:10 - says that some will be tested, put in prison 10 days. Does this mean that the Rapture as taught by the church, is wrong? That maybe the Trib is 10 years, and Believers will be there ( assuming that the "some" here = the "few" that find the gate and narrow path)? (This is why I stay confused. I can see both sides of almost any issue!)

Rev 3:10 - will be kept from the time of trial coming upon the whole world to put the people living on earth to the test. THIS is the verse most quoted as pointing to the Rapture. BUT.....it doesn't say Philadelphia is going to be supernaturally whisked away. It simply says "will be kept FROM". In Torah, no one was "whisked" away. Noah was here, but kept safe, the Israelites were in Egypt, but kept safe from the plagues.....so.....(more on this idea in a minute)

Rev 6:11 - this is the 5th Seal. Yeah, I skipped the first 4 - we're *living* them, so no need to discuss them. (For a good overview of this, go to Anna's and look on her sidebar for "The Six Month Suggestion". She's hit 5 out of 5, now, so yeah - we're THERE, baby!) It says "wait for brothers who *would* be killed". So.....other Believers WILL be killed for their Faith. During the Trib is my assumption, since Rev is TALKING about the Trib (and we're IN it now.)

Rev 7:1 - this is interesting. Angels are at each corner of the earth, holding back the winds. It does NOT say that they release them later - it looks like the winds are stopped for the duration. Might be poetic - it says later, when talking about the sealing of the 144,000 to not harm the land or sea or trees until the sealing is complete......IF the winds are stopped for good, wind-power wouldn't do any good (may be why I couldn't get a windmill? :silly grin:)

Rev 7:9 - AFTER the sealing, a huge crowd appears before John. This is the "Rapture", according to the church. (Which, if so, proves "Left Behind" is full of it, because this is AFTER the Seal Judgements. Shoots Pre-Trib in the foot, huh?) John says that they are those who have come out of the Great Persecution. OK.....this *could* prove the church correct, in the "whisked up to Heaven" mind. But I'm still not quite convinced........because Yah is a God of pattern and order, and this is new. Yes, He can certainly DO anything, so I can't say that the Rapture isn't what the church thinks it is....but the fact that the church teaches this makes me step back with a "prove it" attitude. :sigh:

Rev 8 - The 7th seal, and the 7 Trumpets. This is interesting - all the "bad" stuff that happens ONLY affects 1/3 of the planet. 1/3 is burned up, 1/3 of the water is made bad, 1/3 of the sun goes out (wonder if that filament has anything to do with this?)....This is wide-scale devastation. Worse if the 1/3 *isn't* the same 1/3 - if, for example, North America loses water, and Europe loses all vegetation, and 1/3 of the....Antarctic Sea turned to blood. EVERYONE would be affected. But....it could *also* mean that a total 1/3 is affected...but not the areas where Believers are. (This isn't stretching things - again, the Israelites were kept out of the plagues. This would just be a world-wide repeat of that.)

Rev 9:4 - this is interesting, and why I keep coming back to the Rapture NOT being what the church teaches. It says the angels were instructed to not harm "those with the seal of God on their foreheads", which is EXACTLY what it says in Rev 7:3. :confused again:

It also seems like the Trumpet Judgements are closer together than the Seals.....might just be the way it's written.

Rev 12:14 - mentions "wings of Eagles", just like in Exodus 19:4. Well, the Israelites weren't whisked out of Egypt on eagle's wings....so this has to be poetic language.

There's a lot of other mentions in the later chapters of Believers needing to hang on, not lose Faith. Since it says in Rev 9:21 that those not sealed do NOT turn from their sins, that means that Believers are STILL here during all this. I can't reconcile that to all the people John saw in the courtyard.....IF that is the Rapture. (I can't reconcile that even if it's not....:sigh:) I don't know that the 144,000 are the "True-bies", to quote Anna, but.....I don't know. There's a LOT I don't know. I know that once you accept Yeshua as Messiah, you become a Jew in Yah's eyes.....but I don't know how that fits in with only 12,000 being sealed from each Tribe. I thought that Messianics would be considered of the Tribe of Judah, since Yeshua was of that Tribe....but......:sigh: Maybe it has something to do with your ethnic background? (Just...thinking out loud.)

Also, the 2 Witnesses don't appear until AFTER the 6th Trumpet. IF they are here 42 months, then the Trib is longer than 7 years (since it started in 2007....we're at the 3 year point NOW. That would tie in with Rev 2:10 - 10 "days" = 10 years)

And.....a while back, there was a discussion in Anna's comments that the Seals looked "man-made", instead of miraculous acts. Yes....and if you look at the Egyptian plagues, THEY were thought to be man-made as well. Remember? Everything Moses and Aaron did the Pharoah's magicians copied. (Yah is a God of pattern and order, after all!)

That's all I've got so far. I'm going to keep trying to read...but it may be that I don't NEED to know what's coming (I've read Revelation before, and I *know* what we're in for.....so :shrug:) I don't know.....I just know that things are going to go bad, faster than anyone wants to know. And it's going to be *worse* than people are thinking. The Seals? Have been bad, but not devastating. The Judgements get worse....rapidly.

Current Location: command center
Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
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spin a yarn
From:(Anonymous)
Date:February 25th, 2010 04:09 pm (UTC)
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ooh ooh ooh!!!
Here are a few things that make me think rapture is a thing that happens on earth. Isaiah 11. to me - it sounds like Jesus (side note here - I just Hate typing the word Jesus now knowing how much it bugs Anna - but Y'shua makes it seem like I am trying to order in spanish in a mexican restaurant- since you are in texas I figure you can imagine what I mean)
Back on track - it sounds like the people of the tribe of Judah (those adopted through Jesus) are getting called back to their inheritance - their homeland and now are getting along with all the other kids in God's family.
The end part of Eziekiel 37..Jeremiah chapter 30 and 31...Isiaiah 27..Isiaiah 60..Jeremiah 12:14-17...to me they all describe God coming in and collecting his kids, gathering them up and putting them on his Holy city..
Obviously, I can't be sure about that - I have heard a lot of convincing arguments and like you, I can easily see things from another viewpoint - which can be a bad thing sometimes.
All those folks in heaven? can they be the people who already died? Since the dead in Christ rise first? 1 Thess 4:15 says people who are here will not go before those who have died in Christ - Go where? It says we get to meet Him in the air, and be with him forever - and where is he going? Back to the old heaven? I don't think so...he is going to rule in new jerusalem...
where ever that is...

I am still confused on the whole thing, but these are the clues that I have come across.
~ali

PS the 12000 sealed from every tribe...that is the one that just bugs me. I used to think that 1000 in the bible was like saying a million today. and how we would say - I have a million things to do today - not a precise number - just a whole lot..and the number 12 - means everyone in God's family.

I haven't studied numbers like anna has but here is an interesting little tidbit:
Twelve is the product of 3 (the perfectly Divine and heavenly number) and 4 (the earthly, the number of what is material and organic)...While seven is composed of 3 added to 4, twelve is 3 multiplied by 4... (that came from here: http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/12.html)
how funny - my words to type for conformation on your page today are "emergency monk"

~ali
From:ext_219271
Date:February 26th, 2010 04:32 pm (UTC)

more things to consider...

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** Some people say that the 144,000 isn't a real number, just representative of a totality - 12 tribes, 12,000 people.
** Yeshua said He was 'going to prepare a place for us' and that 'in His Father's house are many mansions'. If we aren't going to be raptured but stay here thru to the Millenium, what about that place and those mansions?
** The scriptures talk about a bridegroom's feast. ((In Jewish Tradition, marriage celebrations last seven years.)) If we're not raptured, how can we be at the feast? Further, if we're here just the first three judgments, then at a feast seven years, doesn't that equal ten years?
** The scriptures indicate TWO different judgments, one via the Lamb (Christ) and one at the Great Throne (Yahweh). It seems like the Lamb judgment is for Christ-followers at the Rapture, and the Great Throne is for the lambs(OT saints, Wrath martyrs) and goats (those in hell). If we aren't raptured, how does that work? Two lines in heaven?
** The problem I have with the seven churches being seven levels of belief is that it's not a natural progression for every person. Not everyone falls into the 'bed of Jezebel', but are strong in their faith all along, with minor 'desert periods'.
** IF we were 'raptured' to Israel, that would not keep us from the wrath that is to come, as that's where the battle is going to be, and that's where people are told to flee to the mountains from. It's also not in keeping with the preps all of us seem to be impressed to put up right now.
** Those beheaded for the faith or that die in the Trib seem to me to be those who find Truth AFTER the rapture. Don't be decieved - all the way to the very end there will be people finding Him. Just because it talks about believers in those days, or the 'elect', doesn't mean the rapture didn't happen before that.

Frankly, I can't seem to write about the judgments beyond the chapter seven, either. I don't know why. Maybe it's because we're not going to be here, and He doesn't want us leaving behind any 'help' for the others.
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From:fiberaddict
Date:February 26th, 2010 04:50 pm (UTC)

Re: more things to consider...

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That's a good point.

However...a wedding feast occurs AFTER the wedding. In Rev., the Bride doesn't come down from Heaven until AFTER the "real" Yom Kippur. So.....I dunno.

This is why I stay confused....it really doesn't matter, though - does it? I mean, we were promised that we were not destined for Wrath....the rest is just "window dressing" for us, right?
From:(Anonymous)
Date:February 26th, 2010 04:38 pm (UTC)

One more thing...!

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If you want the progression of faith, try "My Marah" on the sidebar. The trip Israel had out of Egypt (sin) is very interesting - each place they hit had a significant name for a phase of your spiritual growth.
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From:fiberaddict
Date:February 26th, 2010 04:50 pm (UTC)

Re: One more thing...!

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You're right - I had forgotten I read that! Need to read it again...when I'm more awake!
(spin a yarn)
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